In this episode, we talk with Elizabeth Go who teaches us the tools to better negotiate and resolve conflict. Elizabeth and I discuss the challenges women face in the workplace and she gives us practical tools to get the pay we deserve.
Hey, Elizabeth. I am so glad you are here today. How are you doing
Hey Kelly. Thanks so much for bringing me on. I'm so excited to talk with you. I'm having a wonderful day and I hope you are as well.
Oh, you're so kind today has been a bit of a dumpster fire, but I am here. I am doing this podcast. I'm feeling pretty good about myself. So I'm feeling pretty good about this interview.
So I am excited to get into today. What I think so many people want to know, particularly women, right. And as. Everyone listening to this is in that high achieving selfless professional category. We are not the best negotiators, like just in general, like negotiating as a metaphor for like your life. Right.
But then even on that with the more narrow definition of negotiating position and salary, like we're not good at that. We feel like we're doing good work and that should be enough or it's awkward. So I feel like this is something that gets brought up time and time again from people that I talked to about what are the tools for that?
So. I'm excited to talk about that with you as a real expert and someone who knows all about the world of negotiation and how to do a good job of it.
Awesome. I'm excited. I agree with you. It's such an important conversation. So many women are not negotiating. We know what the data tells us that 57% of men negotiate their salaries in comparison to women, which is only at a Bismal 7%, which is really sad, released that.
And so I just want us to just really dig into the meat of this and really talk about. What we need to do as women to make sure that we're negotiating and negotiating for the worth of the work
that we do. I'm so excited by that. So before we get to that meat that we're going to dig into and really learn how to do the negotiation and really, really conversation about knowing your worth.
I want to ask about you though. Everybody I have come on this podcast is an incredible woman. Like I only ask incredible women doing incredible things with. Credible stories and just lives. Like, I just want to connect with women everyday women who live big lives. And so I want to know a little bit about you.
Like, what's your background? What led you to doing this kind of interest in this work? Like a little bit more about who Elizabeth is. So
tell us. Sure. Thank you. So I am an attorney by training. I am from the South region of the United States, Florida specifically, and I remember at nine years old, uh, being in a play where I played a lawyer and I put away an individual by the name of Benjamin drunk.
So he was Ben drunk. And as a prosecutor, as a prosecutor in that play at 19 years old, right. Um, I remember at the end of it, everyone was just like, Oh my gosh, you're so good at being a lawyer. And I was like, that's it. I'm going to be a lawyer. It's going to stick. And here we are many, many, many moons later.
And I I'm, I'm an attorney. I decided to go to law school after undergrad, I got a. Dual degree, JD MBA. And now I am working in house counsel with a very large organization. And so I'm very excited and thankful for the journey that I've been on and also pivoting as well, and really focusing on conflict resolution and negotiations, because there's such a need, particularly with women and how we need to show up within the workplace, within the home space and within our businesses as well.
No, that's, that's fantastic. And I always love hearing these kinds of stories. Like, I love that at like nine years old, you're like I was cast in the role. I was meant to play in my life. Like just out the gate. Like I am here world. I put binge drunk in jail, and now I am ready to take on what's going on?
Who is next? Um, and here you are, now, this is fantastic lawyer. And so what made you want to pivot to, I know you said a little bit about that because of the way, you know, the interests of people and particularly women negotiating, but what made you want to pivot to that specifically versus other types of law?
Right? There's so many to choose from.
Yeah, and I think it's a great question. So I was an employment litigator and I represented plaintiffs and I saw a lot of really bad behaviors, a lot of things that made me scratch my head and say, why is this occurring? And we brought lawsuits. I wasn't a very small boutique firm in South Florida.
We brought lawsuits against major, major names, and I realize and recognize that at the. At the base of all of this was the inability to resolve conflict. There were so many situations where people would say, you know, my manager said this to me and I didn't know how to respond, or, you know, I was, I was told this particular thing and I, and I realized that the inability to resolve conflict, the inability to.
Exercise and flex your courage muscle, which is something that I always tell women to do the inability to communicate effectively in the workplace causes these sorts of issues. And so, as I began to really delve into the world of conflict resolution, I realized that a part of the tool of resolving conflict is also negotiating.
And I recognize that. Wait a minute. People are not negotiating, generally speaking. They don't negotiate their business deals. They don't negotiate with their family members. They don't negotiate oddly on the holidays when they're not interested in going home for Thanksgiving. They're like, you know what, I'd rather just stay home or host a friends giving rather than going home and negotiating with family members.
And I, and I. I said to myself, there's a need here. And in particular, I negotiated my own salary. I increased my side, doubled my salary. In 12 months, I went from $50,000, broke six figures. And when I did that, I created a strategy plan and I really, I, my heels were dug in, I was 10 toes down. I was like, wow.
I will increase my salary. I know I'm underpaid. Everyone knows I'm underpaid and I'm no longer going to allow myself to be frustrated or just jumped jobs and think that it's going to resolve the issue. I'm going to sit here, learn the art of negotiations and sorted out in my own personal life. And that's what I did.
And I was able to double my salary and I began to teach other women. How to do it. And as I was teaching them and walking through the process of what that looks like and what makes sense for them suddenly I realized. Wow. There's really a gap here and there are books and met multiple, multiple books, and negotiations is such an academic way of looking at the world, but it's so practical as well.
And with women, I believe that women, we are the same. Center of many things within our lives, we play a number of different roles and we don't recognize that we can negotiate in so many different facets. We can negotiate our debt. We can negotiate our lease agreements. If we're in apartments, or if we own businesses, commercial leases, we can negotiate our salaries for the corporate Queens that are listening.
There are so many different things that we can negotiate. And so many women don't do it because. They're afraid to shoot their shot or in the past they've tried and they were shut down. And because of many different factors, people are not women. We are not negotiating. And it really impacts us financially.
It impacts the wealth gap between the different, uh, sexism, male, and female. And it's so important that we negotiate for our own sakes and for our families as well in our communities.
No. I mean so much to unpack there. Uh, that was said that so much brilliance that wasn't captured in, then you're just saying why we need to negotiate.
First of all, the fact that going back to conflict and. Larger lawsuits, anybody who's kind of, as someone who also has one foot in, in corporate world and one foot out. When I see that, that when I see larger lawsuits and when I see the complaints and the investigations and the things like that, almost underlying all of it in the earlier stages.
I mean, there's some egregious things that there's just no negotiating. Right. But in the earlier stage, You see that it's basically a breakdown in communication and inability to negotiate and navigate conflict. Right. And then it just escalates and escalates and escalates and escalates, and then people pick up their biases along the way and exaggerate those.
And then you have like, you know, a multi-million dollar lawsuit, um, or someone's trying to get their there. Their salary back from five years, cause I've left a job. And that is such a basic skill that so many workplaces are missing. They do very token conflict resolution, mostly because most, I feel like most workplaces navigate from a space where they benefit by people not knowing how to resolve conflict and particularly people not knowing how to negotiate.
Like I think there's a benefit for an organization, keeping people in the dark about that.
So oddly enough, I think you're right, because the leaders and organizations believe that there is a benefit, but there's a cost associated with people walking out of the door. If you're paying someone a salary of $50,000, that's just not $50,000 that you have to replace.
We're talking about benefit packages. We're talking about 401k. We're talking about bonus. If we're in a private organization, if we're in a union focused organization, there are so many different. Factors to consider. We're talking about time, resources to train this person, make sure that they're aware of what the organization's requiring of them for a role.
So I always say, you know, when you are within an organization, particularly in a management or leadership role, you yourself also need to understand the importance of conflict resolution. You need to learn how to manage it, right. You need to take as many courses as possible, and you should encourage your teams to resolve conflict effectively because if they aren't given the tools necessary to resolve conflict on a daily basis, a weekly basis, a quarterly basis, that's going to explode.
And I I've literally seen this where I often will do lemons wheezes. And what that essentially means is I go into an organization. I work with a team less than a hundred people. I figure out what's happening and. Is pre investigation. I don't want to talk about, well, I heard so-and-so rubbed his shoulders.
And after that they were gone for about three hours. No, let's really figure out what the issues that exist in this particular team. And let's kind of squeeze that lemon out. Let's go ahead and get out all of that stuff. Sour bitterness and fix this situation because it's costing you time. It's costing you, your own mental wellness is costing you a lot of emotions that you're spending a lot of individuals instead of going to therapy, they come to work and they process their emotions and the workplace.
And that is costs. That's costing you your time, your resources and the organization as well. So my position is back to the point of negotiations. If you are able to negotiate, that means you're also able to resolve conflict. The basis of any good negotiator is the ability to resolve conflict and those individuals who don't resolve conflict at home within their personal lives.
With their parents, with their siblings that shows up, it shows up every single time in the workplace. Absolutely
it does. It shows up in the workplace and it shows up in your life, like if you're not negotiating in the workplace, you're probably not negotiating and other things, places of your, your space.
And it's really negotiating is, is a really a tool of empowerment it's knowing your worth and, and stepping into that and negotiating your space and claiming it, whatever that may be. And I think that people often misread that they get very narrow about money, which. Yeah, we should learn about that, but it's really bigger than that.
Right? It's really your statement about you and your worth.
Yeah, absolutely. It's bigger. And it's it. Also to that same point, it, it, it causes us to really examine how we function in our personal lives. And I think a lot of people that are like, I want to negotiate so I can get that raise and I could walk away and get my lube batons or whatever particular thing that they're interested in as far as negotiating their salary.
But you start to realize that it impacts literally every single corner of your life. Right. And when you have your friendships and your, your friends say something or do something that probably bothers you and you have not spoken up about it that same inability to speak up, shows up at work. When you are on a team and you dislike the way you're being treated or someone is.
Offloading a bunch of things on your desk and you're frustrated, but you're not saying anything the same way that you're not talking to your friends about some of the frustrations that you're experiencing. So I just think it's so important that people really invest their time and learning to negotiate.
And that, that means, you know, picking up a book that means. Listening to a podcast that means asking their close family members and friends, do I negotiate very well and they'll tell you the truth. They'll get it. If you really want to know how you show up in the world, ask your bestie and say, you know, how do I respond when I don't get my way?
How do you think I perform at work? I was talking to you about my manager's manager the other day, and I noticed that. I found myself on the repeat and I kept saying the same thing over and over. So do you have any advice for me if we really are introspective and we really take some time and ask ourselves some tough questions, we'll get down to the truth.
And the truth is every single person needs to learn how to negotiate.
No. Yes. 100%. And the connection between if you know how to negotiate, you know, how to manage conflict, but they are intertwined. And it makes so much sense because we are a culture of passive aggressiveness and conflict avoidance.
Right. And that makes us terrible negotiating and negotiating. Like you can't negotiate from a place of passive aggressiveness and avoidance. Like that's negotiating makes you have to stand it. In front of, in the space own it, and then state what you need clearly and effectively. Like, and if you cannot do that because you're busy, like, Oh, I deal with passive aggressive.
I deal with like, let me walk away and talk trash about this person and let me just completely walk away and not ever deal with this and let it fester and fester and fester, like you said, that squeezing that lemon, like letting it just get more sour. You can not negotiate. And so it makes so much sense to me.
And so on that, on that kind of path, what are some of the mistakes or common misconceptions around negotiation or mistakes that you think people are making when they're negotiating?
Ooh. So a couple of things, one, uh, whenever I talk to anyone or if I'm coaching someone and I say, okay, talk to me about your research.
How much time did you spend researching? Let's use the example of salary because people always think of money. Whenever they're thinking about negotiations. And I asked how much time did you spend researching the market researching different databases? The response is always about 15 to 20 minutes. And I say, no, that's insufficient.
You can't, you can't go on Google for 15 to 20 minutes on your phone and think that you've received sufficient information to create a negotiation strategy, or to even be persuasive enough to negotiate with the person on the other end of the table. So I'll give you an example when I decided, and I, and I resolved in my own self that I was going to negotiate.
I said, Liz, you have 30 days to really understand this market. And what I did is I began to research through Google and I went 10 pages deep into Google. Most of the time when people research their salaries. They may type in senior accountant, Orlando, uh, uh, bakery, assistant, Maryland. Right. So they'll type that in and they'll just do a quick search.
They'll click on a couple of links and they're like, great. I got it. I'm going to go in there and tell them they owe me $20,000 more. You have not prepped. You have not practice. You are in a position to receive a strong no. And rightfully so. You don't know what the market is telling you, and you are just putting yourself in a very weak position.
And what ends up happening is that that person becomes discouraged and also. The person decides that they don't want to negotiate in the future and the by-product of that. Them not negotiating in the future is that when a woman begins to negotiate, if a different person comes up to that same exact manager, they're going to look at that person.
Like, they're crazy. Like who do you think you are negotiating or asking for this much or being this confident. And this is the reason why I say when one woman negotiates, it helps all women. It's so important that we are negotiating. Yes. Through and through and through, you have to know your market. You have to spend time researching.
You have to make sure that you're going 10 pages deep into Google plus. And then after that, you need to take this information and you need to practice call a trusted friend, call a trusted colleague, call your mom. If you need to, you need to practice. Practice. In my opinion does not make perfect, but it does make permanent.
And what we want is to be permanent negotiators in every single corner of our lives.
Oh, what I like that, uh, practice makes permanent, you go trademark, TM, Elizabeth. I know you better get on it, but to negotiate that. But I agree wholeheartedly because it is something that people are really kind of. Oh, I'm just going to do this.
I, you know, I saw salary.com type my stuff in, and it's like, Oh, okay. I've been being underpaid all my life. And I also wonder too, how much self reflection needs to be part of it too. Like what people also don't see, like have somebody also give a real assessment and be really honest about where you are at work.
So. You know, and I am that you're going to share, you're going to talk about this later. But the other thing I realized with people is that they're like, Oh, I deserve double. You deserve double Elizabeth, right? I'm sure you did, but you won't win. We've all met that person. That's like, I'm ready. And you're like,
No, you're not yet.
I have a perfect, a perfect the story about that. I remember. Oh my goodness. I remember a few years ago I was talking to a colleague. I believe we're still, I believe she's still with the organization. And I remember her saying, I've been with the organization for 13 years and they've never bumped me and they've never promoted me and I can't believe, and, and, and I said, so-and-so, you know, I love you.
So I'm going to give you truth. I would not promote you. You call in sick every day. You call in sick every day. When you come to work, you get to work around 11 o'clock. You leave early show up late. You're not accountable. You don't turn in your work on time. And I just had to give her truth because the thing is, is that, so you have to be employable and you have to walk in excellence.
Okay, you can expect that you're going to walk in the room and because the market says that you're supposed to receive a particular salary, that you are going to add tax. As many people like to say, make sure you add tax, you're going to add tax and make sure that they're, they're giving you the money, but, but you are an awful employee or you don't, you're not a good business.
Person, right. You don't do what I, I don't want to negotiate a business contract with you because you have dropped the ball over and over again. So in fact, we're going to terminate this agreement, right? So a part of negotiations is making sure that you are introspective, that you have the opportunity to see where your flaws are.
And you work on those. And one of the things that I tell people regularly, particularly for the corporate Queens that are listening, is that it's so important to do a post negotiation assessment. And what that means is you reflecting and you telling yourself, okay, this is what I did really good on. This is where I probably.
Could use a bit of help. This is what I need to follow up on. Here's my homework. And you need to really drive yourself and continue to do that because if you walk in and you just say, Hey, I'm going to negotiate this and it goes bad and you don't really reflect and assess and understand why it didn't go the way you want it to go.
Or you had a number of things out of your control, but you can't specifically recall it. And you have an upcoming conversation yet again. You're setting yourself up for the okey-doke. What you want to do is you want to make sure that you put your best foot forward. And by doing that is you need to make sure again, do your research that you practice, that you're able to be reflective, that you practice good emotional intelligence while you're in the meeting, because you may hear a no.
You very well may hear. No. And if you hear no that you aren't like, I hate this place, right? You don't want to respond. You don't want a response in a way that they're going to be like, Oh my God, this is never going to work. You get a penny no more. Right. So we want to make sure that we're doing a really good job of representing who we are representing the office that we're called to walk in, and that we do it with excellence.
And we can do that with negotiations, but we have to make sure that we're reflective as well. Absolutely.
No. I love though, like I hate this place cause you know, it's like, you're, everything's going good. You get that? No. And I was like, Oh, the light switches flipping today. Like that is it. Like I have been holding my tongue for five years to tell you people how terrible this organization is.
And you told me now, and now you're going to hear every piece of what's wrong with this organization. And I'll be back next year asking for that race. Uh, yeah, it really is true. It, it means you have to walk in excellence. I love that. I love that phrase as well. You're going to have to be trademark and all this.
Right. I'm on it. I'm on it.
Walking in excellence is so key and so important. And I, I have no doubt that people, every, all of you listening are walkers and excellence. But part of self-reflection that I like too is thinking about one thing. You know, how did you lash up at your last presentation? How did you lash up?
You know, even though everybody's a high achieving, like this is a, this draws high achievers to this podcast. So I have no doubt that everybody here is incredible at what they do. And they're not one step away from getting fired from like incompetence, um, for it. But the fact that a lot of times when we don't show up fully, right.
Cause we're burned out. We're checked out. We're all those things and we deserve more money. Like we're checked out because we're like, you are not paying me enough and you're working me to death. But if we don't kind of also set the stage, I wonder too, what your feelings and thoughts are setting the stage.
To be, to make people be like the last time they saw you before you go in it's like you were really amazing or there was some, you know, project or you've really like they remembering you at your best in the, in the most recent memory. Exactly.
I, I recall a particular situation that happened last year in the midst of a pandemic where.
I showed up to a very important meeting and the individual, um, I don't think she understood or appreciated the nature of, of this meeting. And she essentially showed up and, uh, very wrinkled, you know, look like a Knight nightgown shirts, um, disheveled disinterested, and. Just made me wonder how, how she managed to sit on the leadership team.
Um, and it didn't take very long for others to notice that with no influence of my own, because I don't believe in Downing, um, women, but with no influence of my own, she was removed from that. And it was, we, we believe that you can grow, but you are not where we need you to be. And this person. Also was complaining about the fact that, you know, her salary, wasn't where she needed to be and things of that nature.
So I think we just need to be very cautious and we need to be diligent and we need to be meticulous as well, uh, to your point, how we show up in our workplaces and really in all areas of our lives. But if we are seeking to negotiate in our business, how are you showing up? If you're seeking to negotiate at work, how are you showing up?
And you should reflect on that and have the information and you should ask others as well.
Yeah, that's such the key part of reflection is just going to keep coming back and back that being known who you are. I know when I talk about burnout, we talk about authenticity and clarity. As to tools that prevent burnout.
And that is that you are knowing yourself well enough, and you're very clear about what you need and what you want. And if you don't have those two things you're going to burn out. And so if you're not able to be yourself and know who that person is, and if you're not able to be clear about what your objectives are and what you need to learn and what lessons learned and what we're going to adjust in our lives, you're going to put yourself in a disadvantage out the gate.
To negotiate. You're going to you're coming in disadvantaged.
Absolutely. It's like spit in the wind. It's just going to go in any direction. Right. You need to make sure that you are clear and it's so good that you said clarity because one of the things that I just. Discover with women as well. One of the reasons why we don't negotiate, we're not clear.
We're not clear that goes back to market research, but it also goes back to your why, why are you wanting to increase your salary? In my particular situation, my son was diagnosed with being on the spectrum ASD. So that's a high functioning, um, somewhat like Asperger's. And I remember specifically the doctor saying, well, you know, he's going to need speech therapy and he's going to need, uh, all sorts of different therapies.
I recommend that you start with two therapies, your copay is going to be $35 per session. And then I immediately, okay. Two sessions per week, $35. That's $70 per month. That's two eight, $280, almost 300. So immediately I was doing the math and I realized like, I can't afford this. So my why was very clear and that can continue to stay with me, not just in that time of my initial 30 day research, but that also stayed with me so that I could see it through, because what happens often in corporations when women are negotiating, because so many of us don't negotiate, right.
They're not used to it. And so they're not saying no outrightly, they may tap dance a little bit. Well, you know, Kelly, this is something that we're going to have to follow up on. Okay, great. And you hear nothing, you get crickets, right? So what we need to do is we need to make sure that we're following up.
We need to see it through. We need to make sure that we're clear. We need to make sure that we're consistent and persistent. So that when we show up at the next session that we can close the deal, I went from 50 to 70. I went from 70 to 90 and went from 90 to one 12. And I'm, I'm still going because I knew what my market told me.
My market had a very specific number. And so I encourage women to make sure that they're clear that they understand. And, and as much as I would like to. Say I hope the answer is not, you know, I really want to buy my next pair of Louis Vuittons, but really understand, you know, if that's your reason, Hey, go for it girl.
But, but, but we'd need to really understand that. The reason why we are negotiating is because it also builds wealth in so many different communities and that's so important. The wealth gap exists. It's a true thing. The data supports it and we need to make sure that we are clear that we are negotiating, that we're flexing our courage muscle and that we're doing it consistently.
Yeah. Particularly when you're talking about the need for persistence and perseverance with negotiate, it's not a one-time meeting and one time, because I think nine or 10 times people like to say, Oh yeah, we'll get back to you on that. And it's a stall tactic, like they know, and because it's so hard to get the courage up the first time, right.
You're like, Oh no, I've got to send follow-up emails or I've got to reengage or ask for another meeting or whatever the next step in the process is I have to stay vigilant and I have to stay in it. And if you don't have an anchor to a why, you're going to be like, Oh, nevermind, this is way too much drama or way too much energy for me to do this.
I'm not doing it.
Yeah. I have seen that as well. I have a really good colleague that I was kind of coaching in the background. I was like, okay, this is what we're going to do. This is your strategy. You need to make sure you're answering these questions. Who, what, when, where, right. You need to make sure who are you going to?
And this is something that I always tell people as well. When I, when I do my coaching, who are you negotiating with? Because some people say I want to negotiate. They have no idea. Who holds the power of the purse. They don't know when they're going to negotiate. They haven't set a calendar meeting. They haven't even set in an ideal place.
Now we're all working remotely. Right. But they haven't even set up a zoom session for goodness sake. Right. So we need to make sure we're able to answer answering these questions quite clearly. And I remember with my colleague. You know, she, she just psyched herself out and after psyching herself out, she finally said, you know what, I'm going to go in and I'm going to do it.
And lack of preparation again, can be your downfall. And when she went in, it didn't go well. And she molded over and over for about two months and she was. Angry. And she used all her time to stay away and she was like, I'm clocking out at five o'clock. I don't care what these people say. It became one of those things instead of her actually saying to herself, you know what?
It didn't go good this time. I'm going to be resilient. I know that this is not going to be easy. And I told her. Negotiating doesn't it's not easy. There, there are, there are some exceptions to that rule where people are able to walk in and successfully say, Hey, I was able to go ahead and get an increase of $10,000.
That's a wonderful start. But there are so many people that go in with unreasonable expectations. They walk out with hurt feelings, and then they essentially destroy an opportunity to negotiate in the future. We want to avoid that as much as possible.
Yeah, the perseverance, the understanding, the context and the preparation and the preparation and the perseverance, they go hand in hand because people, otherwise you get discouraged.
Like you said, you're not going to end. If you don't have your anchored into, like, what, why did I come into this room? Because we are going into the room. I think it's really important to you to situate the fact that women have more difficult than men. Women of color, have it more difficult than white women.
We are coming into rooms and spaces that are not welcoming. And that is just a given. So when you're negotiating and I think that's the other thing that's fair. Like men, I feel like, and, and some men struggle with negotiating too. I don't want to say that men don't struggle in negotiating. Of course they do.
But in generalities, we're speaking here, men are, have been more empowered since childhood to negotiate and to be more assertive in the way they speak and women, when we come into these places, right. We already feel like the place wasn't there for us. Like, okay, there's no seat at the table for me, you know, metaphorically, I'm already here in a room that I don't feel was ever catered to, to have me in it.
And so that in itself is unnerving. So if you don't have a why it's
going to make it more difficult. Exactly. And we, I love that. You said that because the truth is, is that my opinion is that women are natural negotiators. I believe we've been doing it since the beginning of time, but society has told us, no, you need to color within the lines.
No, you need to sit down and look pretty. And no one is going to ask for your opinion. I mean, we know what the data shows us. We're still struggling within the workplace to be respected and seen and have our voices heard and only. 30% or less of corporate boards, the seats are held by women and we can go on and on.
And though those numbers are Bismal again at best, particularly for women of color. And I think it's just so interesting that there are many women who know the importance of negotiations, but they don't. And also there are a number of women in leadership roles that see other women trying to negotiate, but because they themselves didn't negotiate, they create blockades.
And that is something that for any of the listeners that are in a position of leadership, if you are a woman in leadership, what you should do is you should encourage, and you should not create blockades and, and roadblocks and, and. Speed. But, you know, we need to make sure that we're encouraging one another because when one woman wins, we all win.
But if you walk into that office and you're trying to negotiate, and someone is being passive aggressive with you or someone say, you know what, Kelly, I think you've had enough. Don't you think it's those sorts of behaviors that are so discouraging. And we'll just, I'll just make you walk out feeling as though you are beat up and.
Make you say to yourself, I'm just never going to do this again. And not only are you going to process your emotions alone, you're going to call your friends. You're going to be like, you wouldn't believe what happened to me. And then they may begin to think to themselves. Well, gee, I'm never going to negotiate because I don't want to walk out feeling like crap.
So we need to really just say to ourselves as women. What can we do to support one another, to make sure that we are resolving conflict, to make sure that we're negotiating to make sure that we're flexing our courage muscles, what things have I done that has caused hurt to another person in or out of the workplace?
And what can I do to make sure that that doesn't happen again? No, one's perfect. Right? We are not expecting perfection, but what we are expecting is that people are aware of how they show up in the workplace, aware of. How they respond to individuals, particularly women that are attempting to negotiate and attempting to resolve conflict and make sure that we are a part of elevating them.
So that we're all elevated instead of simply saying, well, that's just Susan. We know how she can be. No, we need you to empower Susan. We need you to make sure that Susan isn't tore down. We make, we need to make sure that she is not a part of the water-cooler gossip. Right? So if you hear someone being talked about your response and conflict resolution, as a leader should be this conversation isn't appropriate.
Yes. Conversation is not appropriate. If you see Susan attempting to negotiate her salary and Susan has not been the best employee instead of being like, heck no, Susan, I don't even know what you're talking about. The response is. Susan, there are opportunities for you to grow, and I want to support you and help you and allow you to grow in that area or give that person some love.
Right? We need to make sure that we're, we're expressing ourselves as women to make sure that we are talking to one another in a way that's uplifting each other. And so we're not creating these blockades and simply saying too bad, too sad. Kelly, have a nice life. Update your resume. I see you at the next one.
I need to make sure that Kelly understands where she is and what I can do as a leader to support Kelly, to make sure that she's growing as well.
Yeah, all of that. That is the thing too. I think people get, I had to fight to get what I had or I barely got what I have or I'm not getting what I had. And so as a result, I, I, that scarcity mindset, right?
Like it's, it's so little of it that I have to somehow hold onto what I have. And make sure that nobody can get it either. And that is destroying, that destroys everybody's chance of negotiating their next time up easily.
Um, uh, it's, it's interesting that you say that I have a really good friend and she said the other day to me, I really struggle with.
Women that are in a heightened generation from her. Let's sit and let's go ahead and say that she's like, I really struggle with, with these particular women of this generation. And I said, why, why, why do you think that's the case? She was like, they are always stopping everything that I try to move forward with.
They always want to make sure that I don't have, you know, they're, they're hoarding opportunities. They don't give me a chance to speak up at meetings, et cetera, et cetera. And I realized. That again, the basis of that particular issue is conflict. She's in conflict with women of, of a, of a particular generation, because she feels that these women that she's experienced have hoarded opportunities and not given her a chance to just show up and be great.
And we women, we need to show up and be great and allow others to do the same. I want. That when I move on to the next organization or when there's another competing business or whatever, whatever that women, if a woman is leading you for women is in that position. I want her to win. I want her to win because when one woman wins, we all are winning through that.
So we really just have to think it through.
Yeah. I wish people would do that more often. So what do you do when, so you talked about practice research, well, research practice and perseverance goes into. To negotiating those three things have to be present. What, what do you, what happens when somebody says no, because I think that that's going to happen and people are going to do all those things.
I practiced, I researched, I did all those things. I know my why. And then I got in the room and they're like, well, You know, it's a tough thing there.
Well, you know, we're on a tight budget. This always happens. We're on a tight budget. I thank you so much for coming to me, Kelly, and I appreciate you just presenting this, but the budget's really tight this year, so we won't be able to increase you, but let's go ahead and see how the conversation looks next year.
Let's get a date. Let's get a date. That's what happened to me. I immediately said, you know what? I appreciate that you provided me with that information. This conversation is very important to me. So let's go ahead and book six months out. And because I was able to book six months out, I put a calendar. I sent them a follow-up email immediately.
Thank you so much for your time. I'm going to go ahead and schedule. You'll get a calendar invite. I sent a calendar invite immediately. When it was time for us to meet again, I was able to not only bring the information that I brought the first time around, which was a part of my strategy. I was also able to provide them with additional information as to my performance, because what often happens with women is that we're trying to negotiate during performance evaluation.
And if you're negotiating during performance evaluation, One year too late because the budget is likely already set. Right? And then this is an opportunity which happens over and over that your manager, your supervisor, that person in leadership is going to say, well, you know, I know that you want to raise, but I have a lot of concerns.
I'm looking over your documents right now. And I have a lot of concerns with how you've been writing these reports. And I have some concerns with what you put in your email, things that you've never heard before. Issues that have never been brought up before. Concerns that have never been elevated, never landed in your inbox.
So that is the reason why the wa the, the win is very important. You need to know when the budget cycle is for your particular organization, different organizations in different companies have different budget cycles. And if you are not familiar with the budget cycle, you need to begin to do your research.
This is also a part of doing your research. This isn't simply go to payscale.com and find out what you should be making. You need to find out. With respect to the organization. When is the budget cycle because of the budget restarts in January. And we're having this conversation in September, I'm not going to be as successful.
The money has been dried up, right? So we need to make sure that we are fully aware. That is a part of your strategy and your strategy should also include. When they say no. And the reason why I say that is because chances are at a coin toss, 50% of the time, they're going to say, no, they're going to say no because of the budget.
They're going to say no, because they've never seen a woman negotiate. They're going to say no, because they're uncomfortable. They're going to say no, because they are more focused on obstacles instead of opportunities. So what you need to do is you need to make sure that you've incorporate that in your strategy when they say no, how am I going to respond?
What am I going to do as a backup. Who do I follow up with and how do I make sure that they're taking this conversation seriously? And a lot of women are just not doing that. We're taking the no, we're walking away. We're having a crying fit. We'll sit down and eat some ice cream, and then we'll say, well, you know, it didn't work out and I'm going to update my resume and.
Peace. They can knit it out. Yeah. Peace out. Right. So we need to make sure we need to make sure, instead of us just responding in that way, a part of managing your emotions during your negotiation is to make sure that you are incorporating preemptively. The no that you will likely receive your first time.
And also, we also have to recognize that when we're negotiating, if it's our very first time, we're nervous, right. We're sweating bullets in there. And so, so if someone says, Hey Kelly, I was trying to talk to you about my salary, right? If so, if someone's, if someone's approach, if you're approaching it and you're shaking like a leaf.
That it may be hard for the other person on the other side of the table to follow the bouncing ball. So what you have to realize is that maybe your performance wasn't where we needed it to be. That's okay. It happens. Pick yourself back up, get back in there, but don't get back in there tomorrow. That is not what you need to do.
What you need to do is you need to give yourself time, process your emotions, understand what went, right? What went wrong? Do your pulse negotiation assessment, then get back in there and do it with grace and be kind to yourself. There are so many people who want to beat themselves up. Like it didn't work out.
I didn't get my money and they want to beat themselves up. This is not the time to beat yourself up. You want to go in there as confident as possible.
100%. And I also liked the fact about. The the budget cycle. I think a lot of people don't think about that. And so it's, it's all these different pieces go into negotiating.
And that is so true. First of all, not negotiating during performance. I mean, I'm just, I'm highlighting some TK. Key takeaways for people. So if you've got your pen and paper people, you should, you should be writing these down. Don't negotiate, negotiate during performance is not always the ideal time. And it's also not ideal during, depending on your book, your budget cycle, which makes total sense for those.
And even those who are in the self-employed, if they're pitching contracts or things like no one, the company cycle is because if you are out here pitching a contract and it's, you know, If you work in the government, it's, it's a fiscal year is ends September 30th and you're pitching on the 28th. You ain't getting no money pitch on October 10th.
You can not like, it really will make a whole difference between, you know, what your money will be. So having, having that knowledge. Not doing performance because you're right. Everybody says the same thing over again in performance. It becomes this time where you're like, I don't need all this year. I have not heard nothing from these people.
I want more money than you gave me, or I don't like this, you know, rating. And all of a sudden they're finding, well, you didn't doubt your I that one time in January. And you did, they find all of these obstacles to giving you cause they have a limited amount of time. Pool and money with which to promote.
And it's already locked in. Exactly. As you should grab it ahead of time, you ain't getting it now. They're like, we already decided that you are, you know, Elizabeth, you are middle tier and we don't ever give you, cause we're saving it for our boys. And so we're going to give you middle tier money and that's it.
And then when you come to us with this incredible presentation, we're like, uh, we better come up with some real quick because this was good. So it was like, well, you know, Six months ago, you were five minutes late to a meeting and we don't have any money. And it's just becomes all these things. And people walk out of these meetings going, I got to come in it's evaluation, but then they started telling me about all these things that I didn't do.
Yeah, it's true. I literally know of a person who, uh, you know, she came to me after the fact and I said, why didn't you come to me before we would've created a strategy? And it literally was, she went into this meeting and had an excellent relationship with her manager and she said manager, I would like to negotiate my salary.
Can we increase it by 5%. And by the end of that session, they were practically enemies apparently. And it turned into you didn't do this and it turned into almost a screaming match. You never told me how was I supposed to know? So I think it's very important to just acknowledge and recognize that we need to be fully prepared and a part of that presentation and, and preparation is to make sure that we know.
When the budget cycle is so that we go in managing our expectations as well. If you know that the budget cycle is like you said, ending September 30th, and you're making a mad dash to have this conversation, because you're hoping to get the last $30 left in the bank account. It's not going to work out for you.
It's not, it's not going to work out. And that's just a little bit of tough love that I've had to give a number of, of, of my clients as well, because I know that. Many people get really excited when they find good information. Like, Oh my goodness. I can't believe this whole time. I should have been making $15,000 more and their gears are revving and they're excited and they go in and then it's a bust and then it's just, they get upset.
Yeah. So we need to just, we need to understand and appreciate as, as. Fellow business owners as well, where these organizations are in their budget cycles, because we want to be respectful so that we can be gracious to ourselves and they can be gracious to us as well. This negotiation is nothing but a conversation where you're resolving conflict about something that you want.
I love that and negotiations and things, but a conversation where you're resolving conflict about something that you want, write that down to people. Um, I think that is so true. I mean, that's really the crux of what we've been talking about. And I mean, I could talk with you for another two hours about this and maybe if we're lucky, we'll have you back on to talk in more detail and have some people ask some questions because I do think.
That's so important that people also, you can do all the research in the world, but if you're not understanding context, it's completely lost.
Context is, is, is queen. As I like to say, you know, they say cash is King context is queen because if you don't have all the pieces of information, and even if you don't have all the pieces, if you don't have important aspects of the information, you are setting yourself up for great disappointment.
And so we need to make sure that we're collecting as much information as possible. And what I like to tell people again, as I said earlier, answer these questions. Who, what, when, where. And you are showing up with the, how, how you perform with your negotiation, how you are showing up how you are managing that conversation, how you are managing your emotions, right?
You need to be able to answer all those other things, those contextualize, how you will have that negotiation. Because if you know that you're going to, with the who, if you know, you're going to be negotiating with. Someone that is not particularly your favorite person that may shift your mood a little bit.
Right? You need to be aware of how you show up in that interview. Because if I go in and I'm like, Hey, Kelly. I was hoping we could talk about my salary. Oh no, you're busy. Okay. No problem. Thanks. You're walking through sarcasm. You're walking through emotions, you're walking through pain experiences, things of that nature.
So we need to be able to specifically answer the questions who what, when, where, why, and we need to make sure that we're managing the, how.
I love that. What's your book coming out. You got it.
A lot of people keep telling me, you have to write a book and I'm like, Oh, I know, I know. I think I will. I think our
quotable moments, like it's like, you're like cash is King, but context is queen.
I wrote this down. Who, what, where, when and why, but you show up with the, how, like, come on, like come through with this book, like this. Such good information. Like, honestly, I cannot thank you enough for just the taste of what you do. This isn't even the whole thing. I know. It's not like, I know it's not like, Oh, this is it.
Everyone's a hundred percent ready to, to negotiate like the best ever, but it's a start to get people. Thinking because of the things that you've brought up today are things that people don't even commonly think about when they get into go station. They think of it so narrow and they don't understand how broad it is.
And even just understanding that negotiation is just an extension of understanding conflict and managing it is so critically important. Any final thoughts before we switch into our rapid fire questions?
Um, I, I just want to encourage your listeners to keep going for those that have tried to negotiate and didn't do the way though, as well or the, it didn't go out the way that they wanted it to happen.
I just want to encourage them and say, keep going, keep going. Trust that it will work out. Trust that again, we're not looking for perfection, but we're looking for permanence. And trust that this is your opportunity to show up, even in the midst of a pandemic, even in an environment that may be not the most suitable for you right now, if you're able to show up for yourself and for your family and for your community and negotiate, negotiate, negotiate, you are resolving the conflict within and without, and I encourage you to keep going.
And for those that have never done it, Do it today, practice negotiating over a bowl of popcorn, negotiate what movie you're going to watch negotiate the next con, the next Netflix series that you plan on bingeing. Right? We need to make sure that we're practicing and that practice can be us negotiating our meals, negotiating with family members, negotiating with children, for those that have children.
There's a way that we can practice so that when we negotiate, we're doing it effectively. So I encourage everyone to keep going and flex your courage muscle. I
love that. I couldn't have said it better myself. You are fantastic, Elizabeth. So this is the most important part, you know, is the rapid fire questions.
Are you ready? I ask everyone that comes on here. The same question. There is no wrong answers. I'm nervous.
I'm nervous, but okay, let's go. Let's go. Okay. So
what is a quote saying, or song lyric that you live by?
The sun always rises tomorrow. I say that over and over and over again. If I'm having a bad day, the sun always rises tomorrow because it does.
I love that if you could choose another career, what would it be?
You know what an undergrad I majored in political science, because they told me I needed to, to get into law school, but I really wanted to be a cultural anthropologists. And those are individuals that travel the world and they study cultures and languages and different linguistic arts and different foods.
And I love international travel and getting to know people. Um, so culture anthropology. In my opinion. It was is what I missed out on life.
Sorry. So funny. My two of one, I came up with really good friends and one of my best friends is, are both cultural anthropologists. Really?
Okay, cool. So cool. I you're the first person who said that it's like an alternative career.
I love it. I love it. They're going to love this shout out. They're like, yay. One for cultural anthropology. Uh, who is your celebrity crush?
He promised not to judge me. I probably
haven't heard any of mine. So I really get judge trust me, people
judge me all day. So I've had a crush on this celebrity since I was like 10.
Matthew McConaughey played in playing this Bunco kinda, Hey, I, you know, I think he has a really cool Southern twining accent when he speaks. And I just think he just seems like a very cool down to earth person and I've just. I, yeah, I've, I've just always had a crush on this guy, so please no judgment by the listeners either, right?
okay with that. I mean, I get it. Plus he's down with a swirl. We're here
for it. We stand Matthew McConaughey down with the swirl. Totally,
totally dated. He totally did Jim Jackson. Um, and his wife is like, I think she's like black
or something. Yeah. She's yeah. So yeah, that's fine. I'm okay
Uh, we, we stand that. I'm sure other people are sitting at too. What is an ideal way for you to spend a weekend?
On the beach, eating jerk chicken. Ooh. Yeah, I can, I can never go wrong with the beach. I'm from Florida. I grew up by the water. My parents are from the Caribbean. It's just genetically within me, but if you have food on the beach, that is just the experience.
It's just so amazing. So jerk chicken by the water. The beach.
Yes. And leave you alone all weekend. Just let you chill on
that. I'll be good. Yeah.
What is some advice that you wish someone gave you five years ago?
Don't be afraid to forgive yourself and to forgive others and start now. Oh, I like that
Yeah. And what is the song that gets you through
tough times? You know what song that I've been jamming to all pandemic since March a lovely day. I'll bill weathers. Yes. Yes. I love ya.
I enjoy that song very much. I kind of went in my head and I. I kind of moved to, yeah,
that's a great song, peaceful about that song.
There's something very tranquil and very, you know, yeah. The day's not going that great, but let's go ahead and think about how lovely, and I just love the riff at the end where he just has code and, you know, I'm belting it out as well. I just love that song. I love that song. So yeah, it's also
really sweet, like the song about when he's like, if his day's not going great, looks at her.
And then he doesn't have like a little like. Hard eyes. I
know whether there's had the best songs. Um, yes. Great song. Lovely day by bill weathers. Thank you so much, Elizabeth. This was great. And again, this is like the beginning of, I feel like a conversation. If you want to connect with you, where should they connect with
Sure. So I support and consult with organizations on conflict resolution. My company's name is Ave. That's a V I N U V. New Avenue consulting and that's Ave consulting.com. And for women that are really interested. In creating a negotiation strategy, learning how to negotiate. I'm all over social media except to talk because I'm just not that cool.
I'm not, I'm not on Tiktaalik any of that girl. I can't figure it out. I'm just not cool. Um, but we resolve to win that's we resolve to win.
Awesome. I'll make sure to put that in the show notes so everyone can connect to Elizabeth and get to know her fabulous and hear more of her invaluable information about negotiating, basically your life and how to do that with some preparation and really some reflection.
So thank you. Thank you so much. We're so glad that you could stop by.
Thank you so much for having me.